From Circus Performer to Hypnotherapist

From Circus Performer to Hypnotherapist

Episode #53


Show Notes:

Jonathan was born into show business, in the circus. Since the young age of 3, he was famous in the U.K. and known as Flappy the Clown.  He speaks of the all experiences he has as a child, and in his teen years, the difficulties he faced.  From the tragedies, he learned how to deal with all the challenges that led him into hypnotherapy.


In today’s episode, I’ll be interviewing a circus performer who pivoted his career to be a hypnotherapist.

[Music intro]

This podcast is about entrepreneurship, spirituality, and self-care. My name is Lourdes, and I am the host of this show. Thank you for listening today!

Jonathan Royle was born into a show-biz family, and made his stage debut at age 3 as Flap the Clown. At the young age of 14 years old, he became the youngest member of the Association of Professional Hypnotherapists and Psychotherapists, and he has been conducting professional paid hypnotherapy sessions for over 33 years with great success! He also has 3 dozen books about hypnotherapy, NLP, mind therapy and related areas, and has released over 200 home study hypnotherapy and mind therapy courses. His latest book is SHITNOSIS.

Lourdes: And Jonathan, I’m so excited that you are here with us today, and welcome! How are you today?

Jonathan: I’m great, thanks for inviting me on!

Lourdes: You know, I found you in a group, and you sound really fascinating to me. You started in the circus industry, or you were born in that type of entertainment, and then you turn into getting into hypnotherapists and hypnosis and self-hypnosis. How did you change your mind about turning your focus from magician to a hypnotherapist?

Jonathan: Well, you know there’s an old cliché, people dream of running away to join the circus, and I suppose I did the direct opposite because I was born on the circus, because my dad is a circus clown, Tizzy the Clown, and my mum was a Wild West sharpshooting whip-cracking cowgirl western act. So I didn’t have any choice as it were, because that was just the environment I was born into. Hence, at the age of 3, as is circus tradition, the earliest age you can get kids involved in the acts they do, I became certainly Britain’s, but probably at the time – I say at the time because that would’ve been late 1978, I became probably the world’s youngest paid circus clown at the time. Cause I know since then somebody younger has taken that title, as it were. But again, I was doing that because that’s what I thought was normal, that was my environment, it wasn’t a conscious choice on my part.

Albeit, that I very quickly got acclimatized, conditioned some may say, to hearing an audience clapping in appreciation and laughing, but in a context where laughter was a sign and a signal that what you’d done was good. Because obviously in the context of being a circus clown, the idea is to make people smile and laugh. So if they do laugh, it’s a pat on the back, it’s a feel good signal, it’s not something that makes you feel humiliated as it could be in a different context. So I became addicted at an early age to an audience’s applause and ha ha ha laughter. Because they were signs of appreciation, and you might go as deep as saying signs of love. Signals to me as a young clown at the time of being appreciated and worthwhile.

My mum, who didn’t originally come from the circus background, wanted me to have more of a normal upbringing rather than one week in this town, and then traveling to another town and a different school. So she insisted that we buy a house, and I go to one school and only perform at weekends and school holidays. Which seemed all well and good, except that I’d started appearing in the national newspapers in England, and the teachers at that school, I guess looking back, it was jealously or resentment, maybe a mixture of both, but I got bullied and victimized by the teachers at that school. By the time I was about 8 and we were in position to move, and my mum got us a house about 20 miles away in a different place where there was another school.

And I’m delighted to say, went to that school, and the bullying from teachers stopped immediately. I could not praise the teachers at St Luke’s C of E School in Heywood, Greater Manchester, England, any more. They didn’t make me feel like I was an odd one out like had happened at the other school. They were very accepting, supportive, exactly what you’d want a teacher to be. Unfortunately, I then started getting bullied and victimized by many of the pupils. And when you get verbal, emotional, psychological bullying, victimization, attacks, numerous times a day, it’s like death by a thousand paper cuts. It just gets worse, to the point where, I used to be ashamed to mention this, I’m not anymore because obviously I’m no longer in that state of mind that I was at the time, and there’s no reason to feel ashamed about it, because at the time it was a product of the environment and what was going on.

But, things were so bad, that the only time that I felt truly worthwhile as a human being and felt loved, wanted, needed, appreciated, cared for, cherished, valued, all those basic human needs, was when an audience clapped or laughed at the right times. But, the massive downside was the majority of the time, I wasn’t on stage.

Lourdes: So lemme ask you, so you had been bullied for many many many years, and that is kind of like the blueprint of ourselves, right? It becomes part of ourselves, because we grew up in that environment for so many years, and then at the same time you had a successful career as a child and as a teenager, and even today in the entertainment world, as well as hypnotism and all that. But, did that blueprint of being bullied and having that depression in a way, when we’re not on stage, that made you go into self-hypnosis, and how did you get into the hypnotherapy part of this?

Jonathan: Excellent question. That blueprint almost pushed it to an endpoint, because just before I went to secondary school, one evening, late afternoon, I suppose it was Fall, in America I believe you call it Fall, wintry time when it gets dark earlier, or at least it does in England. I went and laid down in the road, in the middle of the busiest main road in Heywood where I lived, with the total intention – No one about could see me cause I was laying in the road, and it would bring an end to everything. And I laid there for what seemed like forever. In truth, it was probably only 30, 40, 50 seconds, which doesn’t sound anything, but if you lay in the middle of a main road with your eyes closed and expectant of traffic coming along like it was practically an impossible to cross road. And lo and behold, this early,  at this moment in time, nothing came along.

And I got fed up, and stood up, and thought well bugger this, and started walking back to the pavement. And just as I put my foot onto the sidewalk, as you’d call it in America, pavement here, whoosh! A big articulated lorry, a big truck, rushed past, and just missed me. And in that moment, in that very moment, in that very second, I don’t mind saying that I, well I didn’t actually genuinely soil my underwear, but as close as you can get, I shit myself. And, also at this moment of realization of, there’s gotta be a better way to deal with this. And that is where the quest to find an answer to handle the depression, the negative states of mind, feeling rejected and attacked, started. And one of the first books that I saw at the library, cause I went to the library and looked in the adult section, was a book called How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

Lourdes: I love that book, that is my favorite book!

Jonathan: It’s a fantastic book, in the right context. Now bear in mind, I was like 12 at the time. Now, I saw the title, and logically to me I thought, well if this book will teach me to win friends and influence people so they’ll like me, then they’ll stop bullying me. Seemed logical, got the book, read it, started utilizing some of the techniques such as one of the things he shares is that apparently, to a human being, their name is the most beautiful word in the world.

Lourdes: Isn’t that the truth though?

Jonathan: It is in the right context. That said, when you’re a 12 year old, and you start using somebody’s name a lot, you know what? It doesn’t work the same on all the 12 year olds as it might do with adults. And even with adults, caution is advised, because if you walk into a bar, a pub as we call them in England, full of complete strangers and find out somebody’s name and start using it quite literally at the start of every sentence when you’re talking to them, you’re more likely to get punched in the face than you are liked.

Lourdes: [Laughs] That’s true!

Jonathan: Some people take these things too literally, and it can come across that way. Anyway, it didn’t work, I was still getting bullied. But, I did, when I went to the library another time, see on the shelf in the self-help and personal development section, a book called Every Day in Every Way by Émile Coué, who was one of the founders of behaviorism, along with Watson and Skinner. And, E Émile Coué was very much one of the founders of positive self-affirmations. Most famous for the phrase, “day by day, in every way I’m getting better and better.”

And studies were done on his work that showed that if people said that to themselves a dozen times when they first woke up in the morning, when they were still in the hypnopompic state, transitioning from being asleep into fully alert, and at night time just before they went to sleep, in the hypnagogic state, that bit from yawning tired to just before you go to sleep. 30 days later, the transformations that had occurred in the life were positively way out of proportion to the simplicity of that simple ritual. So I started doing that, and it did make me feel better.

But the bullying hadn’t stopped, just that I felt more resilient to it. But then I noticed in the book a technique Émile Coué taught called the Law of Reversed Effort. These days, in neurolinguistic programming, NLP, they teach that as “what resists persists,” you get more of what you focus on in life. But, also, if you try to do something, I term it the Yoda from Star Wars Approach, “do or do not, there is no try.” Well, that’s what Yoda said, and it’s very true.

Because hypnotists use this word “try” as a suggestion, and they’ll say to somebody for example, “Close your eyes, imagine them gluing together,” and a whole bunch of other things they say to them, and then they say “Just try to open your eyelids. Prove to yourself they’re locked together now, just try to open them.” And that word, “try” implies that there’s the possibility they won’t be able to do it. So the person’s mind can grasp hold of that seed of an idea and it can grow and become their reality that when they try and open their eyes, they can’t. And thus, they then believe further in what the hypnotist is gonna do to help them change their life, whatever that may be.

And I thought, you know what? Double or quits. I’m getting pinned against the wall at school and hit, practically every day. I’ve nothing to lose, really. So the next day, when the school bully pinned me against the wall, started saying things at me and his cronies laugh, and I knew that I was about to get hit, I just turned around and said “What’re you waiting for? Why don’t you just hit me now? Go on, try, try and do it! Do it! Try and hit me now!” Figuring that, worst case scenario, I’d just get hit like I did every day.

But suddenly, and because of the unexpectedness of what I did and said, which in NLP which will be called a pattern interrupt, because it interrupted the normal pattern of what that school bully expected to happen. But as well as that, the word “try” implied that they wouldn’t be able to, and the two combined, looking back on it now, combined together to cause a state of confusion and disorientation in the school bully’s brain that made them think “What the heck’s happening?” And, they suddenly let go of me, and from that day on, they never came near me.

Lourdes: Wow!

Jonathan: And that’s what made me think, wow, there is something in this! Words, used correctly and structured right – Well, I already knew the extreme power of them to the point where they drove me to want to end it all. This to me, the ending of the bullying from that person, was kind of the direct other extreme showing me that the power of words could lead to a massively positive life-changing outcome in literally seconds. And that’s when I went on a quest to learn everything I could about the mind, and along the way that led to me 1989, aged 14, becoming the youngest ever certified member of the Association of Professional Hypnotherapists and Psychotherapists as founded by Dr. Brian Howard here in England.

Lourdes: Wow, what a crazy crazy way to get into it! It’s sad that you went through the things that you went to as a younger man, but it seems that it had worked so far. And so now, you’re also a certified NLP person, are you?

Jonathan: Yeah. Well, I mean, the truth is there’s no such thing anywhere in the world as a legally required or recognized qualification in the field of hypnotherapy, NLP, or related things like that. Now, there are some states in America where there are certain state laws about what you can call yourself. You’re not allowed to claim to be a hypnotherapist unless you are a state-registered mental health professional, for example.

But, you can call yourself consulting hypnotist. They give me all these alphabet spaghetti letters after my name if I want to use them. But you know what? The real truth is that they’re not worth the paper they’re printed on. None of them are, their only real worth is as a perceptional marketing tool to trigger our belief and expectancy in treatment working in the minds of the potential clients that are gonna come to me, and to help trigger off the placebo response in those clients to make working with them easier.

The truth is, you shouldn’t be picking a therapist just because they’ve got a piece of paper that says they’re qualified to help. I’ve probably got more bits of paper from more organizations than any therapist in the world. I’ve got an album on my Facebook where I’ve got something ridiculous like 500 different ones, and that’s not even all of the ones that I’ve gained over the past fast-approaching 40 years. Because a lot of what is taught by training courses out there is taught for you to pass that course, and so they can market your course and claim that they’re teaching you something somebody else isn’t teaching, so you need their bit of paper.

It’s a monetary making exercise by most of these organizations, and many of the people running them, sadly, have never really achieved anything of real note in the real world of actually helping clients on the front line on a daily basis. Many of them, especially in NLP, that’s the worst culprit for it, people are going on an NLP practitioner course, then a master practitioner course, and then they’re encouraged to go on the trainer’s trainer course. And at the end of it, they’re encouraged to go out there and start teaching people NLP, when they’ve actually not done anything with it in the real world!

Lourdes: Or for themselves, maybe, huh?

Jonathan: No, exactly! It’s a multi-level marketing group scam!

Lourdes: Did you apply some of these yourself before you start, I think you have a training course too don’t you?

Jonathan: Yeah, I mean it sounds hypocritical saying “I have a training course out there,” I do. However, it isn’t incongruent with what I’ve just said, in so much as on the course website,, it does clearly state on there that there’s no such thing as a legally required or recognized qualification in these fields. Although there may be local state laws, there are ways around that such as calling yourself consulting hypnotist, or calling yourself an NLP practitioner. Because, arguably, one of the reasons Richard Bandler devised NLP was because, really, a lot of what he does is hypnosis, is so that he could treat without legal issues. So yeah, I do teach people, but I teach them from the angle saying, look, the truth is there’s no such thing as a legally recognized piece of paper, so it doesn’t really matter what label you give them. That’s largely marketing in itself. When they work, it’s because they fill a gap in the human being.

Lourdes: I like that.

Jonathan: Because if somebody’s got an addiction, a habit, a fear, or a phobia, or they’re stuck in a depression cycle as I once was, it’s because there’s an imbalance somewhere. There’s something missing that a circumstance or the trauma or their environment has caused that imbalance to occur, so that they don’t feel fully loved, wanted, needed, appreciated, cared for, cherished and valued, and they don’t feel totally safe or in control in all situations. And then it has a knock-on effect on their self confidence, their self image, their self esteem, and their self control, AKA willpower.

And if there’s any imbalance in any of those areas, it has a knock-on effect on their self worth, self respect, self love, and positive selfishness. By that, I mean actually taking care of themselves, cause you’ve gotta be selfish to be selfless sometimes. Just like the parent on an air flight, if there’s an emergency, needs to get their oxygen mask on first so they don’t pass out, so that they’re then conscious to be able to put the oxygen masks on their 3 or 4 kids.

Being selfish can be selfless. And if there’s been a knock-on effect on any of them negatively, then it will have an ultimate impact on their sense of self identity, and will cause them to feel like there’s a hole or a gap within. And when I realized that, I looked at the techniques out there and formulated ways to be able to help myself, originally, but now help my clients to feel as loved –

And the key word is “feel,” can still feel loved, wanted, needed, appreciated, cared for, cherished, and valued. It’s just they will have different ways of generating, creating, and experiencing those feelings. But when we can make it so that they feel them in a nice balanced level, that means that it will amplify and balance out their self confidence, self image, self esteem, and self control. Which in turn, balances out the self worth, self respect, self love, and positive selfishness.

Which in turn, balances out their sense of self, identity, and fills that hole, that gap, that was there before that caused them to want to make a smokescreen with cigarettes, or to drown it out with alcohol, or to fill it with food, or to totally escape it completely with drugs. When that’s been balanced out and they feel whole again, excuse the almost cliché sounding, there’s a great song by British pop group Atomic Kitten called Whole Again, and the lyrics on that are quite relevant to what I’ve just been saying. And when you can feel whole again, it gives you that resilience. It gives you that sense of safety. It gives you that sense of… Well, it just gives you that ability to be able to react completely differently than you were doing before.

Lourdes: When you help your clients, do you put them in some type of hypnosis, or do you teach them self hypnosis?

Jonathan: I do both. And the reason for that is because there is no difference. The only difference between –

Lourdes: Really?

Jonathan: Yeah, no difference whatsoever. Unless, the individual sat in front of me believes there’s a difference. And the thing is, most hypnotherapists out there have been taught wrong, because most hypnotherapy trainers have never achieved anything in the real world and then don’t know what they’re doing, and they’re just regurgitating what they were taught by the people who taught them, who taught them how to do training courses and licensed them to do training courses and say you’ve got to teach people.

Well no, I tore up the rule book, the vast majority of what I teach is based on what I’ve done in the real world for myself and other people, and continue to do to this day, is a no shit approach. Hence, my most recent book is called SHITNOSIS – Helping You Get Over the Shit in Your Life & Get Your Shit Together. And, I tell clients, what I’m doing is ultimately nothing more than a placebo trigger. It’s an important-seeming ritualistic process, but the fact you’ve come to tells me that you need this important-seeming ritualistic process because you see me as from my past results and the sort of proof provided by people who said how their lives have been changed by going through this process with me. That’s why you’ve come here, and that’s why you’re paying me over the odds, cause I charge more than most therapists do, for what is just an important-seeming ritualistic process.

And I’m brutally honest with them. I say look, I’ll tell you the reason it works is because I’m gonna give you permission to change, and as human beings we get conditioned from a young age that authority figures, we need to seek permission from authority figures to do things like to go to the toilet at school or to have time off work. So it’s hard-wired into most human beings that they’ve got to ask permission to do things from a perceived authority figure. And a hypnotist is a perceived authority figure, especially with all the alphabet spaghetti after their name and bits of paper on the wall.

Which I tell people, they’re not worth the paper they’re printed on, but your mind believes,  even though I’ve told you consciously now and you’re aware of it consciously, your unconscious mind still believes it cause I’ve got all these framed certificates. And here’s the thing, all I’m gonna do is take you through various important-seeming ritualistic processes, and my SHITNOSIS book is full of them, but they all work when they work just because it helps the person focus their conscious mind onto doing something. Fixation of attention onto one thing to the exclusion of everything else, and that’s the definition for hypnosis. Fixation of attention onto one thing to the exclusion of everything else, which therefore allows bypass of the critical faculty, the analytical area of the mind, that internal voice of self-doubt.

It allows you to get past that and reprogram your personal laptop computer, AKA your subconscious mind, unconscious mind, imagination, call it what you will. So you can delete all those negative programs that have been formed over the years, largely, and with everybody, those negative programs have their roots in childhood. And I categorically say with everybody, now the traumatic experience you are consciously aware of may have happened in adulthood, yes. But the way that you reacted to that traumatic experience was based on the programming you got when you were a child.

Lourdes: I agree with that. So I think you talked about in your book, something about an inner child. So you went over what inner child is, which is like the blueprint of how you were conditioned as you were growing up in that environment, right?

Jonathan: Yeah, well it’s metaphoric, this. Don’t get me wrong, in various schools of thought, there’s different ways of looking at it. Eric Berne, the author of Games People Play, and the founder of transactional analysis talks about the child ego state. And Carl Gustav Jung talked about the child archetype. My mind metaphor of it is that from birth until around puberty I’d say, the teenage years, we’re like sponges that soak everything up, that’s why you learn languages quicker when you’re a child and this, that, the other. Everything that happens from birth through about teenager years kind of gets frozen in time at the teenage at years. Now, a balloon popping at a 2 year old child’s birthday party can be so unexpected and loud to that child that it causes them to cry, and when they see some other people laughing at them, it can cause them to feel rejected and burn an imprint, a traumatic experience. That can be as traumatic as the 30 year old experiencing the fact that their husband or wife has just left them.

Lourdes: Yeah, yeah I get that. So when they get older and that they had experienced something like that as a child, and they react to something that’s traumatic for them as an adult, and perhaps it might have been related to that experience as a 2 year old listening to a loud balloon pop. How does one recognize that, or how does one deal with something traumatic?

Jonathan: Well, it’s always related to the stuff that happened in childhood. Insomuch as, the more mini, now that I said they’re the same level trauma, but I’m just phrasing to differentiate what happens as an adult to a child. I’m gonna call the childhood stuff mini traumas. I suppose in truth I should probably call them the major traumas, because they mold the program that runs in your laptop computer of how you’ll react to things in the future. So, all these little things chip away at you and cause imbalances in those things I talked about before. So that when you become an adult, it’s all those little things that built up to cause the imbalances that now mean you maybe don’t handle a situation that occurs that gets labeled as an adult trauma the same way as somebody else. That’s why, a brutal example, two people who were raped in pretty much the same circumstances, one of them that can ruin their life forever.

Post-traumatic stress disorder, just feeling bad about themselves, all so many horrible ways it can ruin their life forever. And yet, the other person almost shakes it off and uses that pain, that trauma, to push themselves forward and achieve amazing things in life, and also do amazing things like set up charities to support people who’ve been through traumas like that. Same situation, same person of the same age group from the same demographic background, and yet they can react so differently. Why? Because of the conditioning and programming that they had when they were from birth to teenage years would’ve been different.

So knowing that, we can generalize and say one of the most important things you can do is help your metaphoric inner child that’s frozen in time. Your unconscious, your imagination, your subconscious mind, call it what you will, what I’m saying is, it’s stopped at the teenage age where it’s had all those many traumas that built up and caused the imbalances. And that’s why it doesn’t matter when you consciously say I’m going to do XYZ, quite often you end up, you know, New Year’s resolutions break down. And the reason for that is because the program running in your laptop computer is in conflict with your conscious mind. So we can do an important-seeming ritualistic process, one of the most powerful I do with clients, but people can do it for themselves, and it’s fully explained in the SHITNOSIS book, and that’s to get a big cushion or a pillow, sit in a comfy chair, close your eyes and take a few nice deep breathes in through your nose and then out through your mouth.

In through your nose and out through your mouth, and you take a few nice deep regular breaths with your eyes closed. And when you start to notice that yeah, that’s good, background noises are starting to disappear and you’re just starting to feel a bit more relaxed because that fresh air oxygenates your bloodstream, you can then take hold of that pillow or cushion, but as you do in a way that feels right for you, you imagine, just imagine, that it’s almost as if you can think to yourself this pillow is mini-me. It’s me when I was one month old, two months old, six months old, a year old.

It’s also me when I was 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8. It’s me at all those different ages up to being teenage, when things got frozen in time. It’s the young me that is still carrying around, in your imagination, all that baggage, all that self-blame, shame, guilt, and regret. All those imbalances that were caused by all those mini events that became collectively together thought trauma to compel things. And still, without conscious knowledge, are affecting you to this day.

So in your mind’s eye, just imagine talking to the mini-you and giving them a warm hug. And that’s why having a pillow or cushion there really helps, cause it makes it multi-sensory. And we then use elements of Ho’oponopono, I can never say that word right, but the Hawaiian love and forgiveness ritual. And imagine in your mind’s eye saying to the mini-you, “I’m sorry. Please forgive me. I love you, I’m here for you. Everything’s going to be okay now.”

And repeat that a few times, until it’s almost as if in your mind’s eye, your imagination, you can see the little you beginning to smile, being to relax like huge weight has been lifted off their shoulders. So all those things that bothered, worried, or concerned them in the past are melting away. All that self-blame, shame, guilt, and regret is being left behind positively and permanently. And if you do this exercise, allow yourself to be absorbed in it, you’ll actually feel as though a huge weight is being lifted off your shoulders.

You’ll genuinely feel like a lightness starts to come upon you. That all those little stresses, tensions, worries, fears, and apprehensions of days, weeks, months, and years gone by are leaving your mind, are leaving your body right now. Don’t be surprised if when you do this you shed a tear or two of relief and joy, because it is a very deeply profound and cathartic process.

Which, obviously I’m only explaining briefly here, but it’s something I go into in depth in the SHITNOSIS book. And when you’ve kind of healed, metaphorically, your inner child, so that they can let go of all that self-blame, shame, guilt, and regret, it kind of lets them fill that hole, and you kind of grow up instantly in that moment. You’re suddenly in control as the adult, and you can then go onto equal potentially the greatest achievements of life’s greatest achievers cause it’s like you’ve hit the factory reset and become in that moment, through that process, the person that nature always wanted you to be if you’d not encountered all those mini traumas along the way.

Lourdes: That’s mind-blowing! Your SHITNOSIS book, I looked through it real quickly on YouTube, and I love some of the subheadings and some of the chapter titles like “Shithead Control,” you talk about what scat is, what melt is, all that stuff just sounds so fascinating. And your book is available on Amazon and everywhere else, correct?

Jonathan: It is from Amazon and all major bookstores, it retails at $17 USD, which is £14.70 GBP. And there is no up sell, there’s no at the back of the book “wait for volume 2 coming!” And the reason for that is the same reason as I said earlier that I do with my hypnotherapy courses at, I don’t want people coming on course after course. I teach them what works and then go that’s it, that what worked for me and works for my clients, there is nothing else. Why would you hold back something and try and get people to come back? No! This is it! This is what will work for you as long as you believe in it, as long as you apply it, and more importantly, that is the key thing. You take action and do something with it, because miracles don’t happen without a little bit of input yourself.

Lourdes: Correct. So quickly, in this SHITNOSIS book, do people follow it page per page, or can they jump in wherever, or how does that work?

Jonathan: Excellent question! You know what, the first chapter, everyone needs to read the first chapter. Which has got very little in it therapeutic at all, it’s actually an exploration of the word “shit” as in “poop” as in “fertilizer.” Because shit can be negative shit, bad for you, but also shit, animal poop, can be fertilizer that makes plants grow and creates beauty. There’s two extremes, there’s pain and there’s pleasure, there’s negative and there’s positive. And that’s how the human mind works. So we use shit as a metaphor will offer good and bad, and showing people how to get over shit in their life and get their shit together. And it’s also along the way, even if you’ve originally maybe found it a little bit offensive, the use of the word shit, even the most hardened of people have found a couple of chapters in [they] start to see the funny side and realize you know what, I can see why he’s gone down this route. And it’s ultimately to help people, because laughter is a great healer.

Lourdes: Before I go, I ask everybody one last question, and it is a mystery question, so here I go. So, Jonathan, if you can communicate with the other side, would you rather be able to speak to a spirit, a pet spirit, or a plant spirit, and why?

Jonathan: I would prefer not to be able to communicate with the other side, maybe not the answer you were looking for. The reasoning for that being that I believe that when we die, assuming that we have been good people, generally overall speaking, the good we’ve tried to do far outweighs the bad, because none of us are perfect. If we believe in karma and the law of cause and effect and stuff like that, there is a reason why we don’t communicate generally with people once they’ve died from this platform, because they’ve got to then be ready to do whatever is required to go to the next lifetime to work through issues, hopefully finally get to the point where they ascend to another level.

Now that level of understanding of spirituality, call it what you will, advancement or whatever, means that they will then be on a level above us here. And frankly, that would mean that they would have very little in the way of interest in wanting to communicate with us, and we would probably have great difficulty in truly understanding the way they were then viewing things. That’s my true answer, but if I play the game of alright I’ve got to give an answer, one of them, then it obviously goes without saying, it would be a human being, and it would… I could be here forever deciding if it was only one I was allowed to, I could be here forever having to decide which of my friends or grandparents that have passed away that I’d get to talk to.

Lourdes: You don’t have to decide which whom, just wondering if it’s a human being, a plant spirit, or a pet spirit. But thank you so much for your interesting answer!

Jonathan: In which case, it’d be human. Well I say that, but now you just said that again and suddenly when you said animal, I just got a flash in my mind of the two dogs I had as pets growing up, one called Smokey and one called Toby. And it’d be able to have them jump on me, laugh, and give them a stroke and a cuddle, you know?

Lourdes: Yeah. Well, this has been so fun, and very very informative. I can’t wait to read your book and check out all the different ways that we can help ourselves, it seems. And I do love the title, SHITNOSIS, and some of the titles, “Shithead” and all that, it’s hilarious, on top of it. So I can’t wait to read that. And thank you again for being a guest on my show today.

Jonathan: Thank you for having me on, it’s much appreciated having me to share this message with the world.

Lourdes: Yes, alright Jonathan, I’ll be in touch with you later.

Jonathan: Thank you, you take care.

[Music outro]

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