Dave Holley is an experienced project manager for over 16 years. He has quite an extensive background which includes, website and experience designer, digital strategy, assist with TV projection and was a producer for PBS Online. In this episode, I asked Dave what how he got started as a PM and the experiences in working on television and more.
The 8th Level Podcast is about being self-employed, entrepreneurship, and managing our online business. It’s also about connecting to our souls, having the right mindset, and self-care. My name is Lourdes, and I am the host of this show. Thank you for listening to this episode today!
Hi, my guest today is Dave Holley. Dave Holley is an experienced project manager for over 16 years. He also has a master’s degree in project management. He’s very creative, has an extensive background that includes website developer and digital strategy, and assists with a variety of TV projects, and was a producer for PBS Online. He was also a producer for many other venues, and possess many technology skills that include UI and UX designs, as well as live virtual events.
Lourdes: Hi Dave, welcome for coming on to my show today! How are you?
Dave: I’m doing alright, thank you! Excited!
Lourdes: Good, good. So tell me, what got you interested in doing project management?
Dave: That’s a great question. So I mean, really, I had been doing it for most of my career, but didn’t really know it. I started off in the television side of things as a producer, and I really enjoyed that. But when things went digital, I kinda wanted to move in that direction, so I got a degree in that and started doing all the work there. And I kept getting hired on as a producer, but the work that I was doing wasn’t the kind of work that I was used to. It was more about planning for affiliates and different kinds of events. The more and more work I did, I realized that that was it’s own discipline, and I wanted to learn a lot about it. So I went back to school, and I got a master’s in it. And I started working as a project manager for a virtual events company, and that was where I really saw the difference between the producer role and the project manager role. And really, the PM side of things was where I was the happiest.
Lourdes: Oh, that’s interesting. So, how long were you into the producer role, and then you found out you’re doing all the planning and all the stuff that producers do, right?
Lourdes: So, how long were you into that? And then you said they went digital, right?
Lourdes: And then you got into project management. So, tell me more about that.
Dave: Yeah, so I was an intern on BET back in like 1995 or 96, and I worked on the Planet Groove show, Rap City, and Midnight Love. I also did an internship on Channel 8 where I produced this kind of New Haven restaurant neighborhood talk show. And I really enjoyed that, but around about 2000, that’s when you saw the whole push towards digital. And it was a different way the people were then able to consume the medium, and I wanted to be a part of that. And I saw that a lot of companies hired producers to fill a role that wasn’t quite a producer role. Because to me, a producer is someone that has to really deal with a very fast-paced environment where things are changing, like the talent’s late, or the set doesn’t look right, things like that. And you have to be able to adapt on the fly. But the role that I was in, it didn’t really have that kind of pace. There were lots of variables, but they were being executed by people and teams and I really had no control over them. So I found that the need was to really have a plan in place, so when something happened, we could just pivot and take care of it that way. At the same time, I saw lots of producers having a hard time in the role, they were all like failing. And I was kinda like, well why is that? So I wanna say like the first 3 years of my career was a producer, and then from that point on, which is like 20-something years now, I was a PM.
Lourdes: Oh, wow. So, do you remember your first PM job?
Dave: First PM job, I wanna say was at… And see, they called me a producer there, but it was a project manager one. And it was at a company called… Hang on hang on… Oh my goodness I can just see it right now! Anyway, they were an advertising company for pharma, so we did a lot of the advertisements. It was called Viscira, that’s what it was, Viscira! And we did interactive on the case studies, or video work on doctors giving presentations. Things to make the medical stuff look sexy, for lack of a better word.
Lourdes: Oh, OK. So that was your first PM job?
Dave: That was my first real job managing on project where we had like timelines, Gannt charts, that kind of cadence where it wasn’t as loose and open-ended as a producer role. This was really like, we’re gonna follow the same sequence of activities for almost everything we do, and you’re in charge of managing the budget, the timeline, the people, the resources, and making sure it’s delivered on time to the quality. And it’s one of those things where it was high pressure, because no one really remembers the PM if the job is done well. But I guarantee you, if anything goes wrong, it is gonna be your fault. [Laughs]
Lourdes: Oh my gosh! How do you motivate these people? Like, how many people on that first job as a PM did you have to manage? Cause you have teams, right?
Dave: Yeah, so I think I’ll step back, cause I wanna say so… From like 2002 to like 2009, I was the general manager of a software development company. And I wanna say really there even, it wasn’t project-only management, it was managing teams of people to get them to accomplish different things. But in that role, I had the authority to hire and fire. As as PM, the challenge is, as you know, it’s like, you don’t have that kind of authority. You have to get people to get stuff done when they might not want to do it. Or maybe there’s something else that they actually have to get done before that. So really, I found that the way to get things done would be to really understand who does the work, understand what’s in their way, and try to help them get those things out of the way. Because at the end of the day, I can’t make someone do anything, but I have to make sure that I get something done by them, because I can’t do it all on my own. But it’s building those friendship, and have people generally want to work with you because they care, not because you asked them to.
Lourdes: Hmm. And have you ever had somebody that you worked with that didn’t give a a care?
Dave: You have to… like, take ’em outside. No I’m just kidding! [Both laugh] No I mean, you have that. There are always people that for whatever reason maybe don’t wanna work with you, don’t have the time to work with you, or whatever. And you just have to figure out what it is that they need or what’s in the way, or what it is that’s causing them to have an issue with you, and then work to resolve it. Because, really there’s no need to be mean to anybody. I kinda feel like people that are in those positions are acting like that, there is something wrong, and you might not know what it is. It could be something like family, or it could be something personal. But taking the time to listen to them and to sympathize with where they are changes things. And you can make friends where you didn’t think that you actually could, y’know?
Lourdes: Yeah. Y’know, and it made me think of like, some of the clients can be demanding and maybe cause a lot of stress. Because like you said, they can be mean, and they don’t need to be, but for some reason they are. How do you deal with that type of stress? Because, as a PM, do you have to be smiling at everybody?
Dave: You do.
Lourdes: When people work in retail and then you’re the cashier and people are yelling at you and whatever, as the cashier you still gotta sit there and smile. So as a PM, do you kinda still have to sit there and smile too when people are mean?
Dave: To a certain extent. Cause on the PM, you’re technically – Well, I shouldn’t say technically. But you’re usually facing internally, so you don’t have to deal with the customers. Sometimes you do, but more times than often, you’re dealing with the internal teams to get things done. So, in that respect you don’t always have to smile, because you’re typically working on the same things, under the same types of pressure. But, if you are facing a client or talking to them, they wanna see you at least smile. And I always look at it as, really my role is to be an extension of their business with us. So I wanna always try to operate like I’m working on their team trying to get something done from the team I’m on. So there’s that kind of, you’re working for two people in a sense, cause you have to answer to your team and the client. And it’s not always easy.
I’ve definitely had some clients where I was ruled off the project because they just didn’t get along with me. I don’t always have the best personality. Most people do like me, but I’m not going to do something I don’t believe is right for the project, and I will protect my team, fiercely. Because the team is the one that is gonna get the job done. So I learned early on, protect the resources. And always, as a PM, you have to document your work. Because you’re the first person that someone’s gonna be coming after if something goes wrong. And really, all you have are those to back you up. So, they’d better be on point.
Lourdes: [Laughs] Yeah so, producer, it’s kinda like on the go, on the edge, and all that stuff, and then PM you have a timeline and all that. So, when you have this timeline, and the way things are that you just mentioned, are you like, a patient person?
Dave: You have to be. You have to be like a slender reed blowing in the wind. Because, a project is chaotic. There are a billion things happening, and they don’t always happen on schedule, so you have to be able to adapt. And really, you’ve gotta be the person that’s gonna hold it all together, because if the PM loses it and they seem flustered, everything is gonna fall apart. But if you’re able to maintain it, take it in, find a way to let it go afterwards, everything is gonna work out right. The people look to you to get it done. And I mean, I look at it as, a project will always need your help. It can’t do anything on its own, so it’ll always be thankful that you were a part of it. The other thing that’s really awesome about that, is that project’s end. There’s always a fixed end date. So no matter how bad it is, it’s gonna be over by X day. So you gotta look at it like that also.
Lourdes: That’s true! I bet sometimes you can’t wait till that end date approaches.
Dave: That’s right, and then we party when it does happen! Celebrate success!
Lourdes: So is that part of your personality, is just being patient? I wonder, listening to you, and I know it is chaotic for PMs sometimes, how does one get into this? I’m thinking you’re kinda like a patient person in your personality too, or are you the opposite?
Dave: Well, I’m a Virgo, so I like to help everything and make it all better. [Laughs] No, but–
Lourdes: Balance, right?
Dave: Yeah! I just, I try to make things better, or be as helpful as I can all the time. With that being said, I do have some rough edges every now and then. But I really think that for me, it’s one of those things where I’m adaptable, right? I always try to find a solution where there is a problem. So for me, it was like OK, you have to get from here to here, how are we gonna do that? Let’s plan everything out, and then follow that particular plan. Because again, the PM has authority over the project plan, and that’s really it. It depends on the kind of company you’re with, there are some companies where the project manager has a level of authority that you don’t see elsewhere. But there are checks and balances that go along with that role. But yeah, I would say for me anyways, I just have always been an adaptable person, I can go with it.
Lourdes: Hm, that’s good! So you have to be flexible and all?
Dave: Gotta be flexible. And you have to be firm, too. You can’t let people walk over you. You have to be able to be like, no, we communicated this, and this is what’s gonna have to happen. I hear what you’re saying, but we’re gonna do it this way, y’know?
Lourdes: Yeah, that’s gotta be tough for some people to be firm, don’t you think so as a PM? Or will they not make it as a PM?
Dave: Yeah. Y’know, I think I’ve always said that being a PM is more of a personality type than it is anything else. Because you can learn the skills, and you can learn the techniques and still fail at it. But if you are that kind of person that is able to see the big picture, see what has to get done, not be afraid to jump in there and actually do it, you’ll do just fine. But it’s not for the weak, y’know? Because again, it’s one of those where there really… You’re always gonna be the target. It’s a very thankless job in the sense that again, if it goes well, according to plan, that’s what should’ve happened and you’re not gonna get thanked. But if anything goes wrong, they’re coming after you. [Both laugh]
Lourdes: I’m laughing when you said it’s a thankless job, which yeah, you’re kinda right. I mean, working behind the scenes and all that pressure on you, so.
Dave: Very special breed of people, that’s for sure.
Lourdes: Yeah, like a crazy breed of people right? But, it’s exciting at the same time.
Dave: I look at it as, at the end of the day we’re the ones who got the job done. So there is that satisfaction. And for me, that’s why I keep on doing it. Because I know that I contribute to make sure that we got from A to B on time, in budget, and in scope. And that’s what I did.
Lourdes: Yeah, very satisfying. So, when you started, what kind of certifications did you get? Because I looked at your LinkedIn profile and man, there’s a lot of abbreviations, I don’t know what they all mean.
Dave: Well yeah, so I would say when I first got started, I got my MSPM, which was my Master’s of Science in Project Management. And I went that route, which you don’t see a lot of people getting a Master’s in it, because it is a very specialized degree, and you don’t really need it unless you want to learn the history of it. And for me, learning the history, the theory, the different approaches, was what I was interested in. What’s interesting is, most people get the PMP Credential, which unfortunately almost carries a bit more weight than the Master’s, which I think is a little bit unfortunate just because a Master’s is a 2 or 3 year honor program where you can learn everything. The PMP, anybody can pass that test as long as you studied to take the test. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you know the material, it just means that you passed the test. It’s also in corporations, so you have to pay to play, and that kind of bothers me because I feel like people are using that to get ahead in the industry, but don’t knowt he actual application of it.
Because it provides a framework, and using that framework isn’t always easy and you have to know how to use it for the project that you already working on. With that being said, I do think it’s something that every project manager should have because it’s gonna set you apart from people who are just like “I had to manage things.” Where this one, it shows that you have a credential, it just makes you that much more attractive I think to potential employers. I also have a Master’s of Science in Information Technology, just because at one point in time I really wanted to help companies implement different technology solutions. And writing down the methodology and the courseware is all stuff that I love to do. Producing videos on how to use it, love it. So the two of those I think set me apart a bit. My parents were also med doctors, and since I didn’t follow them in their footsteps, I had to get two graduate degrees for them to leave me alone. [Both laugh]
Lourdes: Wow, that’s crazy! I didn’t know your parents were doctors!
Dave: PhD, MD, yeah, the pressure was high growing up. And I was an only child, so they were like what are you doing? Study!
Lourdes: Now I understand! Oh my God!
Dave: I’m covered in tattoos now, I’m like, I’m bad, I do whatever I wanna do! [Laughs]
Lourdes: That’s your rebellion part, right? So, what is the most fun project you have ever worked on?
Dave: Hmm, fun project I’ve worked on… So, before 6Connex, I was at a company called ON24. And ON24 and 6Connex are very very similar, but I worked on this project for them called the Marriott Voyager Program. Basically, it was like a virtual event program, where – No, I take it back! So there was that one, which was also fun, but Merck was the best one. But, the Marriott one was this really cool animated intro where people would log on to learn about the company and where they would work within the different divisions of it. But it was just fun, because it wasn’t your typical virtual event, in that it didn’t end. It was a perpetual, always-open destination.
And it was fun because we got to do some really cool things with graphics, 3D, design work, and just pushing the boundaries of at the time what the platform could do. Merck was a very similar thing, where it was this thing called the Concourse for their sales team to go and get information about the different drugs. It was almost like a marketing hub, but it was super awesome because they would send us pictures of their actual buildings, and then we would get to translate those into a 3D space and make them as interactive as possible. So you could walk down the hallways, or look at a video, or see a person out there talking. It was just fun, because we got to work with the team at Merck who actually learned with platforms, so they knew pretty much as much as I did about how we could do that. So we were able to kind of take that project to a really advanced level, and do some pretty amazing cutting-edge work, and just had a really fun time on it. And I still keep in touch with people on the team today, which is pretty cool.
Lourdes: Nice. Yeah, that is very cool! So, I’m gonna ask you an opposite question? What is your biggest failure as a PM? Any big mistakes?
Dave: Y’know, biggest failure as a PM, I wouldn’t say it was as a PM, but as a manager I was in charge of the project managers, and there was an employee that was really talented, and I thought he could make a good project manager. And I encouraged and pushed him into the role. And it wasn’t what he wanted to do, and he ultimately failed, and I had to fire him. Which was trouble, because the only reason he did that was because I thought he could do it and I really pushed him into it. So for me, it was learning that just because I see that vision in somebody doesn’t mean anything. They have to also want it, because it’s not just the skills to get the job done, it’s really about the personality. And he was a great guy, and just got beat up on the projects, so that was a really hard one. I think similarly, the places where I still sometimes drop the ball on things where, as a PM, you have to communicate. You have to let people know when things are gonna be delayed, or when you need help. I think asking for help is probably the hardest thing for a lot of project managers, because again you don’t wanna seem weak or that you can’t get the job done, but you can’t do everything. And if you need help, it’s really important to ask for that early on, y’know?
Lourdes: Yeah. So, typically, how many projects do you work on now?
Dave: So, I’m a Program Manager now, so it’s a little bit different. So, typically the programs I manage might have 2-5 projects happening at the same time, so I’m really overseeing all of that, but I’m not at the tactical level. But back when I was a PM, I would say anywhere between 5-7 active projects, and they could range in duration from 2 weeks to 6 months, and have a dollar value from like $5,000 to $100,000. And just, as you go up, I mean, as the project gets bigger and there are more people on it and the dollar amount goes up, that’s when you see those mistakes as being costly. And mistakes can also come at the costs of somebody’s job, so it’s really important that if you get called to task, you can defend yourself and the team, because the client is gonna always wanna blame somebody else.
Lourdes: That’s true. So, if there was a wishlist of an industry that you could work in, what would that be? I guess like a dream job as a PM.
Dave: Dream job as a PM, that’s a good one, that’s a really good one. So I would say, right now, I would say either veterinary medicine, just because I’m very attached to my dogs, and I used to want to be a vet, but I had a hard time with biology, that didn’t really work out. But, I would love to work on some projects where we’re gonna put into place systems for a vet to use, or medication for pets, or something like that. So the whole technical side of patient management I guess, for the projects.
Lourdes: That’s interesting, OK! So then, I’m gonna ask you, I know it’s a stressful type of job at times, what do you do to destress or have fun?
Dave: I own a lot of guns, and I like to go to the gun range, so that helps. [Laughs] I study kendo, which is a Japanese martial art. I’m a second-degree on the black belt in that.
Lourdes: What is it called, I’m sorry?
Dave: Kendo, k-e-n-d-o. It’s basically like full-contact fencing. You have an armor, and like a sword, and you get to beat each other up. It’s incredibly violent, and lots of fun. [Lourdes laughs] So I started doing that. I used to snowboard, but I ended up hurting my knees two years ago, so I haven’t really done much of anything cause it hurts to walk these days, but hopefully I’ll have surgery soon, get replaced, and they’ll be all better, but yeah. No but I mean, I try to stay active, but again it’s just one of those things where, my personality for whatever reason, I can take up anger and stress well. And take it on from other people, and kind of take it off of them long enough so they can get their work done, and then release it somewhere else. That’s my superpower.
Lourdes: Interesting. So what’re you working on right now? Cause you have a big background here.
Dave: Professionally? I’m working at a company now where I’m looking to help them develop the process to release products into online channels. So for example, I’m the multi-national channel, and we might want to introduce gift cards into that. Or introduce a digital wallet. So I introduce products into different online channels for a online financial services company.
Lourdes: And personally?
Dave: Personally, I chill. I’m in Phoenix, Arizona, so I just, I can do stuff around the house. I just got a new puppy, who is destroying my life altogether, I forgot what they were like. [Lourdes laughs] So dealing with him, and trying not to dropkick him somewhere is hard, but I love him to death. He’s just, he eats everything, like everything under the sun. I’m like, why are you eating that, cause it’s a cable to my computer, or whatever. But yeah, he’s a puppy.
Lourdes: Y’know I forgot to ask you, are you working remotely, from home?
Lourdes: Oh, that’s sweet, isn’t it?
Dave: Yeah. And y’know, I made the decision a long time ago, maybe after working at ON24, I was like, I’m not gonna go back into the office ever. Because it doesn’t make sense. The work that I do has always been digital, my teams have always been located elsewhere, and I feel that when you work from home, you have a different discipline and that time is different. And when you have time with people, you have to use it as effectively as possible. Whereas in the office, people come to the office and you go to meetings, and everyone’s kind of laughing about something, and isn’t the same where it’s like OK, I need to get this this this and this from you before we’re done, go. Which, I like that pace better. I don’t miss going into the office at all, I like being able to – The only downside is that the work never ends. Because I work from home, I found myself sitting in front of the computer whenever, whether it’s a Saturday or Sunday or at night, when I wouldn’t do that at the office typically.
Lourdes: So I’ve been working from home since 2014, and since I started my podcast I ask a lot of the business owners out there what they do. And I don’t know if you’ve heard, but we all talk about boundaries, so part of that, because I’ve learned from working from home that I need to stop working. So my hours are really 9-3, or 9-4, and I get off the computer.
Lourdes: I don’t do client work, nothing. I may go crazy because oh my God, I gotta due dates and things behind the scenes that I wanna finish, but I have to stop myself. And so, and it keeps you sane. Now I have a family, so I have to stop. Because in the first 2 years, I ignored everybody. My house was a mess, it was just awful. And I hired a business mentor back then, and I had struggled with hey, I wanna get things done because I’m so excited, I’m so passionate about what I do, I can work 24/7.
Dave: Right, me too. I do, and I do. Like, I’m single, I live alone, why not. [Laughs]
Lourdes: But you need self-care dude, right?
Dave: You’re right!
Lourdes: You go out shooting at the range, that must feel great. You go out walking with your dogs, and doing your martial arts. That’s a form of self-care. But I mean really, you have to have a time to start and end. So that’s what I’ve learned about boundaries, is that we need to work at a specific time. Just like in business, if we had to go in the office, you go in 9 o’clock, get out at 5, same thing at home.
Dave: That’s really good advice, I need to take that into account. Cause I definitely just discovered that I had to have a separate office at the house ’cause I have one that I use here now, but then I have my actual one where I can just do work. Cause I found myself kind of mixing up the two. I’m like paying bills while I’m in a meeting, and I was like, this has to stop.
Lourdes: Correct, yeah. I have a dedicated space. Now I have my space; when I used to live in my old house, I had an office, but this one I used a spare bedroom. And then this closet is my dedicated space for podcasts. [Laughs]
Dave: I love it! And because for me, it actually feels like I am going to work, to a certain extent, cause I’m actually going to a different part of the house where it’s like, just the work is over there. So it’s like, I wake up and walk across the house.
Lourdes: Yeah, so this other girl that I know, she’s been a virtual assistant for 14 years, and she has a family, and she was actually the one that brought it up, where I asked her that question and she says “Oh no, I have to have my own space. When I go in my office, that’s it, I’m in my office.” And when her clients tick her off, she leaves that office and goes and chills in the living room. Because then you know your office is your office, and it’s business.
Dave: Yeah, you’re right. That actually makes a lot of sense.
Lourdes: You get away from that stress, man!
Dave: It’s there, and they’re waiting for you.
Lourdes: Yeah, especially your job. It’s like, it’ll wait for you until the job or the project is over.
Dave: It will, but I look at it like this. I mean, yeah it’s stressful, but if I make a mistake, nobody’s gonna die. It’s not gonna hurt anybody, or I’m not gonna crash anything, it’s just like yeah we might lose a lot of money, I could lose my job, but it’s not that deep. I never try to take it too seriously, because we’re just, it’s not that serious. There are some really serious things happening out there that should have the attention that they deserve.
Lourdes: For sure.
Dave: My duty’s not really one of ‘em. [Both laugh]
Lourdes: So, I’m getting to the part of the interview where I ask you a funny or weird question. Are you ready?
Dave: Yeah, let’s do it!
Lourdes: Alright! So, what is the best or worst purchase you’ve ever made? If it’s the worst one, why did you regret it? If you’re gonna tell me it’s the best purchase, then why is it the best?
Dave: Oh man. OK so, the worst one, so I buy junk. Like, I’m an impulse buyer. If I see it on Facebook, I want it, right? So I got this thing where it was like, it looked like a little small metal film holder. But, it could expand quickly to become this giant staff, like a ninja staff thing. This thing was the most dangerous thing I’ve ever come across, because it essentially was a big metal ribbon. And when you would pull this thing out of it, it would just kind of expand itself. But it would slice your finger up in the process if you were not careful. [Laughs] So I can’t tell you how many times I was trying to be cool with my ninja staff and pop it open, and I popped it open and took a chunk of my finger out, and it was bleeding everywhere. So that was by far the worst purchase ever. [Lourdes laughs] Whenever I see this thing on Facebook, I’m like do not buy it, this is a piece of a trash, it’ll hurt your mood and your family. If you ever see that, do not buy the ninja staff that pops open.
Lourdes: Yeah, I think, somebody gave me a rod. It was like a metal rod, and he gave it to me, he’s like use this for self-defense. And I’m like, OK cool! Alright so, it’s about 10 inches long, I could stick it in my purse or whatever, and you push this button and it pops into this –
Dave: A forthwith staff? Yeah, that’s the one!
Lourdes: And you can hit people with it.
Dave: That’s it, that’s the one!
Lourdes: I know now why he gave it to me.
Dave: Have you ever popped it up? So like, y’know how it’s like a big ribbon almost? Like it’s this metal ring that’s kind of wrapped around itself.
Lourdes: It almost looks like a tripod stick.
Dave: Yeah, I can see that!
Lourdes: Heavy duty, right? Now I figured out why he gave it to me. He gave it to me because the thing is so hard to close. I tried smacking it on the cement–
Dave: Oh so, that one’s a little bit different. That’s the actual, that’s a good one. That one you probably could use. Mine is, it’s like a piece of aluminum or metal that’s just wrapped around itself so that when it’s extended, it’s like a… I’m trying to think what it’s like. Y’know on your tin foil roll, if you were to take it off that cardboard thing and just kind of pull it out, it’s just like that, but it’s sharp there. So if you’re not careful, and this thing snaps out, it’ll slice your hand open, which I’ve done. [Both laughing]
Lourdes: So wait, what is it? Is it supposed to be a weapon of some sort?
Dave: I think so? I think it’s not safe for anyone to have, that’s the problem. It’s dangerous is what it is! But it looked cool. I was like yeah, I’m gonna be walkin’ the streets and be like back up! I got my ninja staff! Cause I’m not a ninja, but whatever, yeah exactly. You know the problem there.
Lourdes: [Laughing] That’s a hilarious story, I’m cracking up!
Dave: Worst purchase ever, that was definitely the dumbest one.
Lourdes: Thank God I didn’t see that, cause it must’ve been a cool shiny object.
Dave: That’s the problem! Anything for me I’m like, look at that! Look at this! I want that! Stuff shows up all the time which I don’t even need.
Lourdes: Well, next time, one day I’ll come out with a product, and I’ll definitely show it to you.
Dave: And I’ll be like yes! That’s it! I need it!
Lourdes: So Dave, thank you so much for being my guest today. This has been so fun, and I’ve learned so much more about you.
Dave: Thank you so much for having me, it’s always good to talk to you, and I wish you the best! Hopefully we get to run again sometime.
Lourdes: Thank you! Yeah, sounds good. Thanks Dave, and take care!
Dave: You got it, have an awesome one!
Lourdes: And join me next week, where my guest helps overwhelmed women with an underwhelmed life find passion, purpose, and joy!
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